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Nestan
26-10-2006, 07:24 PM
I find that standard TS class ships when used as UT's have a very short life span when using Xtended. I would imagine that is the reason the MTS class ship was created. The problem I find with the two available MTS class ships is their cargo hold is far too small to be used as Universal Traders. It feels like the current MTS ships were designed for transporting weapons or other small quantity shipments with the ability to actually kill any attackers. A UT needs alot more cargo room but will always try to jump when attacked so just needs enough shield to last 10 seconds. You may already have a ship built for release with 0.6c that fills this void but I am not aware of it. Speed is not as important as shield capacity and cargo room as I find even the fastest TS eventually gets caught by a Marauder and dies faster than you can open the sector map. I am currently using the Terran MTS and have only lost two so far, both to Marauders but their cargo holds are always full. If I could hand pick the perfect yet balanced MTS ship for use as a UT it would have 8k+ cargo, 120m/s speed, 3 X 125MJ shield, and there would be no need to have more than just a good quad rear turret. These stats when compared to the existing MTS class ships seem balanced due to the lack of firepower.

Mokonzi
27-10-2006, 06:08 AM
Interesting observations Nestan. You never know...

Star_Raider15
27-10-2006, 01:37 PM
i never lose UT's on XTM mainly because i used the satelite limited UT software and its actually very usefull because i can avoid pirate sectors and so i rarely lose UTs(bout one UT a day)
altough i do agree on the pirate problem i remember a day in which i entered split fire and there were no less than 2 carracks 4 marauders and dunno how many M3's M4's

Nestan
27-10-2006, 03:14 PM
I will definately be trying out that Satellite limited UT script when I install .6c but with Xenon invasion, khaak invasion scripts you still need UT's that can survive 10 seconds against most threats. Obviously if your UT gets caught by a Q then you shouldnt be complaining that it died but anything M6 (Not M6M) and below OOS should have a rough time killing a UT. In vanilla X3 it was almost impossible to lose a Boron Dolphin Superfreighter as a UT. It only had 5 X 25MJ shields but in Vanilla X3 the Pirates, Khaak, and the Xenon had no M6. So outside of the 1.2 days when a UT out of fuel next to a xenon sector might try to run through it you NEVER lost a UT. Anyway, even with satellite limited software your going to lose UT's to xenons and khaak if you use the invasion scripts which imo really spice up the game and make it more challenging. I just feel that the X-races if faced with the threat of Pirate,Xenon,Khaak M6 and M7 ships they would make a MTS class vessel that is appropriate for Universal Trade :)

Spatzimaus
27-10-2006, 07:38 PM
Before installing this mod, I had a dozen TSs running as UTs. Most drove Caiman Supers; with 10k+ cargo space, they made me a lot of money, fast.

I then installed the mod.

Within a day, more than half of them were dead. Two of them died to a Xenon invasion, I think (near PTNI HQ), but the others died to pirates with M6s and M7s. I can't be totally sure, of course, because they died so fast I never even had a chance to see who was attacking them, but I did pop into the sectors to see what was there afterwards. 3x25MJ just can't hold up against serious firepower, and a bPAC or two aren't going to deter anyone.

So now I still have a couple superfreighter UTs, but all of my new UTs drive aHEPT-equipped Vulcans. I can tell you now, it makes ALL the difference. Sure, I can't get the huge cargo runs any more, but 2500 cargo is still pretty nice when most of what you're carrying is weapons or high-value components, and just knowing that I have ships that can outrun pirate M6s/M7s (and M3s!) and can outgun any fighters makes me happy.
(Most of my surviving TSs were switched to factory support duty in safe areas.)

My point? MTSs shouldn't have the cargo capacities of TSs. It's a tradeoff. If you want to do satellite-limited trading then TSs will be relatively safe, but if you're really afraid of losses, buy MTSs for your UTs, and keep the TSs for established trade runs.
(Also, my personal ship at the moment is a Vulcan. Other than the pathetic acceleration, it's a great little ship, and I'll keep flying it until I can get a Vidar.)

Star_Raider15
27-10-2006, 08:18 PM
i never laid satelites in pirate sectors also not near xenon sectors
and i used lightly shielded ships like caiman hualers but despite this i never losseed ships
but i did lose once 8 caiman haulers as they were going to HoL to get jumpdirves and mk3;s
but they took the worng way round and they went through split fire and one by one they all died before reaching the gate
and the bad part was that i only noticed 3 hours later when i chekced my log entries
but it wasnt a bad thing, i then bought 16 caiman haulers so that the pirates can see that the more they kill the more will come :evil:

Aragon Speed
30-10-2006, 04:38 PM
I second this ID. UT's are the bain of my life. (That and auto-destruct, I mean pilot :) )

Stevio
30-10-2006, 05:06 PM
I hate to be the one that drops the Bombshell on this one but this will probably not happen...

coz if MTS's had huge cargobay's there would be no-use for the TS's :roll:
we already have a huge issue with balance as it is,
ES ships seem to get dwarfed and put on the highest shelf and never seen again in the current release. the same will happen to TS's if the MTS's cargobays are increased too far

Aragon Speed
30-10-2006, 05:08 PM
AWWW come on!! You take all the fun out of whining and whinging :lol: :lol: :evil:

Stevio
30-10-2006, 05:11 PM
:evil:

i didn't say that their bays won't be increased in the future, but obviously the amount will need to be within reason :P

ezra-r
31-10-2006, 02:52 PM
I find the original idea usefull but I would take into account how you overpower ships like Vulcan if you increase their cargo space, that will render the X3 stock TS ships useless.

If this was done I would overprice the ships like vulcan from 2.5mill to 25mill or similar.

Mox
31-10-2006, 02:56 PM
Military Transports arent intended to haul large payloads.
Think of them as the brasses safest and quickest way of getting a bunch
of missiles or boomers from A to Z.
That said, even with their mediocre booties, they are completely overpowered
in .6b and will be nerved in turret capacity quite a good deal for the upcoming release.

The new formula most likely will come to someting like:

-Better shields
-Better speed and steer
-More weaponry/turrets (largely anti-missile, IRE/PAC/ION)
-Reduced cargo
-Twice the cost of a normal TS

Also keep in mind that a huge bay is very relative in X3...Ive rarely seen a UT25 Dolphin haul it's 14K around...more common loads for UT's are between 2500 and 4500

Stevio
31-10-2006, 03:42 PM
yeah good point UT's can only caryy as much as they can sell, and even then they still end up with excess wares :x

Mokonzi
31-10-2006, 04:53 PM
I've many times seen UTs travelling with one or two items in the cargo bay...

Spatzimaus
01-11-2006, 01:26 AM
More weaponry/turrets (largely anti-missile, IRE/PAC/ION)

The .xls file (from 0.6a?) listed the Vulcan as only allowing aHEPTs in the Main mounts, but in 0.6b aHEPTs can be in any turret. Honestly, I think that's the main thing overpowering the ship at the moment; the quad-aHEPT Fore turret that locks on to your chosen targets just rips through M3s pretty more quickly than a player-driven M3 could, just because it doesn't miss as often. Dropping that down to bPACs would go a long way. (Keeping the aHEPTs in the left/right pair might not be so bad, because of their angles). Maybe to compensate you could increase the Main guns to bHEPTs; you only carry two, so it's not exactly going to let you kill capships.

As for the cargo, I think 2500ish is just fine. Most UTs never fill up anyway, and if they are, it's with cheap cargo like ECells... when you could make more profit delivering a single heavy weapon or shield to an equipment dock. If you restrict yourself to more expensive materials (Crystals, for instance), 2k is more than enough space.
Plus, I've been using a Vulcan as my personal ship, if only because it's a very convenient place to store all my extra stuff. Expensive missiles (including Unknown Objects), spare PPCs I don't have ships for yet, extra ECells and Drones to be passed to my other ships... a fighter can't hold that. Bigger ships can't dock with stations as easily, and smaller ones don't have the cargo space. I might switch to a Vidar once I buy one...

Nestan
01-11-2006, 03:59 AM
Ok well after reading all of the replies I understand why all of the MTS ships have small cargo bays but it still doesnt change the fact that standard TS ships get eaten in Xtended and MTS ships have a slightly small cargo bay to be used as a UT. How about just adding several new TS class ships that are better suited to be used as universal traders. Weapon loadouts really dont matter at all other than missile defense for traders so just a good rear turret should suffice. Only thing that is really lacking is shields for survivability. But before I cause any more controversy I will try out the satellite limited UT script because if I can keep my UT's out of xenon border sectors and pirate sectors I think my losses would be cut exponentially.

One last thought... would it be possible to create a script that causes player owned ship pilots to eject when the hull is damaged below say 80% and then keep their attributes if the player has a ship pick him up or something like that. It doesnt seem fair that the AI gets to do it but we dont. With UT's and combat pilots in the Leveled AI script the greatest loss when a ship is destroyed is the pilot not the cost of replacing the ship.

DarkWrath
01-11-2006, 04:07 AM
This will work but it will eat quitte a few CPU time for monitoring... But I'm not a scripter so I can't be sure. Maybe make it so when the hull is below 80 and the pilot ejects , the ship goes neutral too.

Stevio
01-11-2006, 11:11 AM
very nice idea, although NPC's can't claim Neutral ships so it would be better if the Owner ship was set straight to them

it is possible (artificially ofcourse) i am not to sure on the amount of CPU drain this would cause (probably not alot) but we can always have an AL setting to turn this feature on and off

Spatzimaus
01-11-2006, 08:09 PM
I'd just like smarter UTs. Specifically, if you set a station complex as a homebase, the UT should return there whenever it's low on energy, drones, missiles, etc. before resuming its trading. UTs always seem to run out of drones and not restock. Plus, since it knows it's heading home, it could pick up some needed resources along the way.

Aragon Speed
02-11-2006, 11:23 AM
I've been using a Vulcan as my personal ship

So have I. It is as fast as a M3, but has enough shields and weapon arc coverage that I can survive most surprise attacks from the AI. It is no good as a pure combat craft, but then it not supposed to be. If I want combat I switch to my reaper (or above), but if I'm just sector sitting on SETA waiting for stuff (factory to finish producing a product I want ect...), then this is perfect for it.

Spatzimaus
02-11-2006, 05:47 PM
So have I. It is as fast as a M3, but has enough shields and weapon arc coverage that I can survive most surprise attacks from the AI.

Specifically, it can survive fighter-only Pirate raids. Heck, forget "survive", the thing excels in them. The key is that it's fast enough to outrun anything it can't outgun... well, except for missiles, obviously. And its acceleration stinks, but it turns beautifully, which makes it great for dogfighting.

Basically, until I can afford a Vidar (and enough aEMCs for it), I'll keep flying my Vulcan, the "Mortal Wombat". (To keep them straight, all my TS's have "Llama" in their names, the MTSs have "Wombat", and the TLs have "Hippo".)

Ooh, there's an evil though... Pirate Vulcans! Seriously, it's the perfect transport for them. If you disallow aHEPTs on the Vulcan's turrets, then the Marauder outguns it by a small margin...

Mox
02-11-2006, 06:08 PM
Actually the Vulcan originally WAS intended to become the pirate TS (since it's just an old graphically spiced up X2 craft this seemed fitting at the time).
It was decided not to go forward with this due to pirates complaining about the Vulcan's paintjob. My guess is as good as yours if the latter has been adressed by some eager scrapyard broker with a couple of spraycans and a little time on his hands.....;-)

Aragon Speed
02-11-2006, 07:11 PM
It was decided not to go forward with this due to pirates complaining about the Vulcan's paintjob. My guess is as good as yours if the latter has been adressed by some eager scrapyard broker with a couple of spraycans and a little time on his hands

Well with the ES 2.0 patch coming up we can probably deal with that now anyway. :lol: