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stompy
16-05-2012, 08:15 AM
Hi all,

I've been playing XTC for a long time now using several different starts, what i have noticed it that in a battle the outcome usually ends in me losing a capital ship!

Example:- I have a sector with 2 gates, on one S gate i have a Valhalla set to defend position and a Taipan protecting it, on the other N gate i have an Olympus on defend position and a Castrum protecting that, then i have a Titan patroling the sector with 2 Raptors, 2 cusodians, 2 Yokohamas and 6 Cerberus protecting it (looks rather good in a scary sort of way when you jump into sector and see all those large ships, I own) :grin:


Ok, so im not in sector im in a quiet unknown sector watchinh whats going on and then i hear "one of your ships is under attack".
I quickly scroll to my sector and see a Daimos a couple of Nemesis and a Heavy Nemesis plus a few maybe 4 M3's atacking either my gate deffenders or my patroll amada.
Then amazingly at the bottom of the screen there pops up your M2 M2+ M1 M7 well at least one of them gets wacked, How can that be?
Surely with that combined force and shielding and firepower in that sector there should be no way of this happening.

If i was to leave my fleet to it to protect the sector after only a short time it would be gone!
The reason i used nothing below an M7 was purely to avoig such a thing happening, but no.
I could accept that if an M2 came into the sector with a few friends then maybe i could lose a ship but not the measilly M7, M6 forces that the pirates are sending.

So, my question is, is there a problem with the ship balance durin out of sector battles?

Andy

Loriel
16-05-2012, 09:16 AM
So, my question is, is there a problem with the ship balance durin out of sector battles?


Not quite - but there is a known problem with OOS combat in the X3 game engine, which probably causes the problems you have seen.

As I recall, the problem is "dumb" targeting in OOS combat - so large ships often waste their fire on small opponents.

Recommended solution is to have mixed fleets - some small ships accompanying your large ones, thus ofering your opponent the opportunity to waste his fire on them.

Loriel

stompy
16-05-2012, 09:27 AM
I have done this before and just lose the M6's and M3's almost imediately the battle starts.
I have had huge 160+ fleets of mixed sizes and like previousely said just end up with no fleet left after a few hours play, hence the reason i went over to M7 and above only.
I may purchase another 10 Cerberus to protect the Titan as i have prety much unlimited funds.

I wish there was a way of automatically replacing lost ships like for like when one is lost (if i lose a cerberus then another is disbatched from Sirius Prime at cost.
Or my own ship yard which i now have all capital ship licences for the Argon and most for Paranid and Teran Pirate ships upto M7.

Also a little/lot off topic, why don't my ships get repaired when the dock back at their carrier as i have it enabled in the Arlificial life list?

Thanks for the responce.

Andy

Loriel
16-05-2012, 09:35 AM
What I think is recommended is to add some M5s to be sacrificed, which you don't mind losing. The choice of target is dumb, so if you have lots of M5s and a few capital ships, most of the enemy fire should engage the M5s.

You would still have the problem of replacing the M5s, but that would be more bearable than replacing capital ships.

I haven't yet tried it myself in XTC, but perhaps the CODEA script would solve some of these problems - replacing and repairing ships, etc.

Loriel

stompy
16-05-2012, 09:39 AM
Thanks for that,
I'll purchase 40 M5's for the 2 raptors and try that.

Andy

wwdragon
16-05-2012, 11:14 AM
stompy Terran ships ARE pretty weak when compared to the now rather strong Commonwealth race ships.

What I think happend in your case, is that the M7 was an M7M and missiles auto hit OOS. So your ship basically got hit with a full volley of torpedos each round of combat. That's enough to take down any ship in just a few volleys.

stompy
16-05-2012, 11:18 AM
No M7M's.
It was a Daimos Paranid M7 with a few M6's

lich+ich
16-05-2012, 12:43 PM
I wish there was a way of automatically replacing lost ships like for like when one is lost

Have you considered using drone frigates?
I used them in one of my earlier saves to protect the sectors near pirate territory.
Simply park the frigate as far away from agressors as possible and order the dronewing to protect the gates/ships.
You don't have to worry about replacing ships and equipment, just make sure to keep the frigate out of danger, it can't fend for itself.

Hope I could be of help. :)

Lich

Eliah
16-05-2012, 01:52 PM
Frankly, OOS combat is really weird in X3:R and X3:TC. To balance all weapons so that they work fine both IS and OOS apparently was too much of a hassle for our weapon-balance-guy - We prioritized In-sector relations, as that's what, in the end, affects the player more closely.

I'm afraid to say that for OOS, the only answer is just like in vanilla - overkill and more overkill.
It could be possible that the revised shield sets in 2.0 will make some difference to that, who knows.

H-K
16-05-2012, 01:56 PM
OOS is like all sectors everywhere so thats a ton of combat calculations all the time which is why i think it doesnt work optimal because if it would work prefect then my cpu would work overtime even if I sat in an empty sector, doesnt mean I don't care but kind of accept the fact OOS can't really be fixed in X3.

K.J.
16-05-2012, 01:57 PM
Defend position doesn't work OOS like it should from what i recall. If you are not on the offensive you lose the ship, as the enemy fires first and OOS damage is insane. So your best bet is to use a M2 with perhaps 2 M7 as wing and then set this wing to attack all enemies - they will always engage the enemy directly instead of recieving damage first, and then maybe return fire

thetack
16-05-2012, 06:18 PM
unless you guys have changed OOS the basic problems used to be

1 the Ai gets to fire first and all of his ships get to fire with every thing
2 the AI gets to fire its missles and all missles hit
3 the program calculates which ships are in range using their spreeds in the turn
4 your turn calculates the closest target and target that
5 the missles hit before any defence targeting in your turn and if not your ships firepower could be used up on missles
6 turrets dont target indevidual targets but all the same one
7 sheilds dont get to recharge between first strikes as they would in sector (IS) as everything hits at the same time unlike in IS battles

So if even if you have a small fleet unless all have the same speed all the enermys ships will target the closest of yours and even if that happens to be an M2 out on its own there is a fair chance it will go boom even if its up against ships IS the M2 would eat (assuming the total fire power including missles excedes the sheilding/ hull of your ship). your next fastest ship engages and if alone goes boom this can continue and loose you a fleet.
to combat this a fleet of smaller fast M5s and M4s helps by spreading the AIs fire and missles amoungst many and allows your M2 to get in return fire but usualy its against the closest enermy which can be anything even a M5.
so always protect your sector patrol caps with small escorts and ensure that if you mix cap ships no one ship is faster than its companions.

of course the safest thing to do is jump into the sector as soon as a fight starts so sensible IS rules apply

i think those are the problems raised in OOS descusions way back from X2 and followed through in X3 but i will bow to anyone who knows better ;)

wwdragon
17-05-2012, 10:46 PM
If you are not on the offensive you lose the ship,
This and above.

Also, If you prefer to use a single ship or pair of cap ships, look for the ship with the biggest total shield value and use only those. I use Attack All for sector guards, when using default scripts.
The weapons you put on it should always be the highest range, highest damage per-shot ones available. This is because OOS combat works like a turn based slugging match and all weapons in range auto hit each round.

I've not tried this part, but here's a suggestion...
Since OOS shield regen works in TC, another alternative is to set emergency jump out to about 50% shields. If you have military shields and autojump enabled, with.the ship is set to patrol only that sector, it will basically pop out and back in to resume chasing enemies with greatly regenerated shields.
This only works if the amount of shield regened in that time is enough to restore most shields before the ship re-engages; It is important that the ship's shield generator can support at least the full amount for basic shields (2GJ = 2,000MW drain/shield) or the military shields are useless; conversely, the more shield gen, the better!
This should enable your ship to take out all fast enemies at the start, then the bigger ones in turn. If this works as planned, it will also give you a fair bit of time to check on the ship, too!