PDA

View Full Version : Self-defenseless



dctrjons
03-01-2013, 05:22 AM
Maybe I need to be pointed to a script...I thought I had a record of all of them but either I'm missing one or the behavior of leaving my ships has changed.

Is there a setting that I can set on my ships that will allow them to defend themselves when I leave them? I keep 'cheating' because I keep loosing my M7 when I'm OOS doing whatever it is that I thought would take 5 min and either RL or some-such extended my time away. Not even getting a ship attack warning. Just find it destroyed by the typical small m6+ m5/4/3 pirate wing (which when on patrol it typically ends above 90% shields). Am I missing the command? I know the default is a dead ship when you transfer out of a ship...but I guess I assumed they would fire back OOS.

I know I tried a "follow me" type script and I think it was combined with a "keep target" (maybe). But I think I stopped using those. I thought there was some autopilot command (XTC or X3:TC) that would kick back in when you left the ship...or I could just be eating too many left over candy canes.

It's not too tough to set it to patrol, or some such ('attack enemies' can be too dangerous in my current diplomatic situations...and I think this quits when there are no enemies left) BUT like I said...sometimes I think I'm going to just leave the M7 for a bit, but as in all sandbox games...something comes up, or even some rediscovering/testing the rules of the universe happens. I hate to loose 20mil because, well my ship has low self esteem and feelings of abandonment while off on my '3 hour tour'.

Loriel
03-01-2013, 08:01 AM
An alternative solution would be to ensure that the M7 was accompanied by a few "throwaway" ships - and hope that in the OOS combat those were targeted first. Possibly on "protect" settings.

Not an ideal answer, but I think out-of-sector combat still has major unsolved problems.

Loriel

code99
03-01-2013, 09:48 AM
I didnt have any problems such as this ... If i am to leave one of my ships somewhere, i either dock it at a station/shipyard or tell it to defend its current position (there is a command under the combat menu that is called defend position or something). If you set the global commands (friend or foe) for each of the races properly the ship will target any enemy closing to its location.

As an alternative, you can install patrol command software and tell the ship to patrol a sector where u know there arent many enemies, and if they come the ship will defeat them (if its not outnumbered heavly or outgunned)

But the best way is to just dock the ship somewhere. Better use some Energy Cells to jump to a sector with a shipyard or military outpost than to lose an expensive ship.

I may be wrong about some of what i said idk, someone correct me if im wrong.

dctrjons
03-01-2013, 11:19 AM
Docking idea but posses two problems. Ship suicide risk, of any ships I own nearby, or even friendlies. And the risk of being 'kicked out.' And I haven't quite figured out how the game decides how/when to do this and the places my M7 can dock are limited and popular.

Should the m7 be defending itself by default? It's kind of hard to test since the situation ends before I know about it, and loading a save directly ahead of the event doesn't ensure that GoD will spawn the attackers again next time. AND jumping out of my ship when I know an attack is coming, is awkward to set up and not sure if that's a good test.

I'm wondering if there is a particular weapon the m6 (or escort) is using that is doing far more OOS damage than it should....that will be even harder to figure out.

insolent1
03-01-2013, 12:48 PM
Use defend position and/or pick a safe place to leave them, if you do this consider putting a few lasertowers around them that way if they come under attack the enemies will target the lasertowers first which will warn you and it will give you ship a much better chance in OOS combat.
Alternatively set them to follow the local defence forces this works well in places like Sirius 2, sirius prime, aspiring hope, merindasa prime, atropos 4, chinns demise etc.

OOS is weird i've lost a m2 to a small group of scouts(normal game) so they don't need special weapons when OOS, whereas in sector a m2 can ignore m5's because of its shielding.

dctrjons
03-01-2013, 01:49 PM
Well hold on here. Lol. When I can afford to start building a base and carve out my own corner of a sector, I'll be deep in the set-up of it.

What I'm talking about is a circumstance where I might just want to test how the game works and I need to leave my ship/ships unattended and don't want to spend 10 min sending them off to safety to test something that isn't clear or obvious in-game that might take 5 min but ends up taking longer.

Latest example was seeing how mines work, since there really is no info on them. And I can't buy them with a m7. I wasn't going to use the save, so it didn't matter...but when the m7 was smote it pointed to a potential issue for a time when I do a test and do want to keep the save.

insolent1
03-01-2013, 03:18 PM
Why would you use a m7 to buy a station?
The ware size for station is ST class and m7's can only hold XL. Only TL's can carrry stations although there are 2 TL's which can't remotely dock at shipyard.
I leave my ships unattended all the time and have yet to loose anything bigger than a m3 but i'm friendly with the pirates which removes probably the biggest risk to your ships in this mod.
Each race has a couple of core sectors where it should be very safe to leave ships floating in space without shields except if there is a kha'ak or xenon invasion.

Super shipyards should allow you dock a lot of ships up to m6 class and you can normally keep 1 capital ship there at any given time.
If you turn off civilians(as these are normally the biggest culprits for making your ships undock) you should be able to store 2 capitals without them forced to undock as its the civilian Casinos/arenas/hospital ships that force your capitals to undock from eq docks and super shipyards.

K.J.
03-01-2013, 03:37 PM
Defend position doesn't work OOS from what i recall, Setting it to Attack everything is the best way to ensure your ship will defend itself^^

insolent1
03-01-2013, 03:47 PM
Defend position doesn't work OOS from what i recall, Setting it to Attack everything is the best way to ensure your ship will defend itself^^

In vanilla it works as I used it a lot in the normal game during the FF plot, I had 2 m2's on defend position in unknown sector next to m148 and they acted as expected, engaging anything that came into range OOS, in sector the would hang in space until a hostile came in range and then set a course to engage.

main problem I always found with the attack all command is that they would engage the m5/m4/m3's instead of the m2/m7/m6 and this would often lead to their destruction.

K.J.
03-01-2013, 03:55 PM
Ok sounds like it has been fixed at some point. Then of course use the defend option, as attack all has some drawbacks ^^

Heteran Leticron
03-01-2013, 04:24 PM
Since it wasnt discussed yet:

An M6+ with a fighter wing easily kicks a M7's butt OOS. Your ship is passiv when it has no commands, yes, but it should start defending itself, when it is being attack. Though due to OOS mechanics it doesnt stand a chance vs. a M6+ fighter group.

If you wish, i can explain in more detail, why that is the case. Though im not sure, how much this mod changes OOS - Battles, is there somewhere a specific statement?)

code99
03-01-2013, 04:33 PM
What I'm talking about is a circumstance where I might just want to test how the game works and I need to leave my ship/ships unattended and don't want to spend 10 min sending them off to safety to test something that isn't clear or obvious in-game that might take 5 min but ends up taking longer.

In that case use cycrows cheat script. Dock the ship in question in less than 5 seconds. Considering its a "test game" ("test how the game works" your words) using cheats this fashion shouldnt be a problem ...

Otherwise, the options discussed above are the only way to go, defend position, local patrol (has some drawbacks as said above) or dock to a station manually/autopilot (i have yet to see a problem with autopilot, ive docked m6s, m7s and TL with autopilot on different ocasions and never had a problem with it, xtc may have fixed some of the issues with their new stations and docking patterns).

K.J.
03-01-2013, 05:42 PM
how much this mod changes OOS - Battles, is there somewhere a specific statement?
No direct OOS changes, damage is still pretty high (although a little bit lowered because of the gun rebalance)... the OOS combat problems still persist, not possible to fix them from our side.

dctrjons
03-01-2013, 10:09 PM
Why would you use a m7 to buy a station?
Not sure what you mean by that. If that was directed at me...didn't say anything about buying a station. Just if I'm not going to spend the time to buy laser towers and set up a defense position when my intent is just to test some wares out that a m7 can't dock at to pick up...

OHHHHH MINES, just got the miss-com. No, not diggy diggy mines. *BOOM* mines. And just FYI you don't need to buy a TL to transport a station, you can rent. And if I remember it is super-cheaty cheap.

An M6+ with a fighter wing easily kicks a M7's butt OOS. Your ship is passiv when it has no commands, yes, but it should start defending itself, when it is being attack. Though due to OOS mechanics it doesnt stand a chance vs. a M6+ fighter group.

If you wish, i can explain in more detail, why that is the case. Though im not sure, how much this mod changes OOS - Battles, is there somewhere a specific statement?)

Kinda, with first asking a question. What makes sense 'IRL' is:
That the Corvette and wing compliment are attacking a Frig with essentially its back turned, and then my anti-fighter turrets are the only things firing back. Worst case, the m6 outmaneuvers the m7 to never bring its main guns to bear. But this should still take some time.
Reverse this - A Frig on patrol is heads straight at the target corvette and can near blow it away on one pass and can ignore the fighters with light shield damage.

But this is not how I understood it works OOS. I know there is some goofiness about fire rates and taking turns shooting, but I didn't think 'facing' was considered. Hence all weapons fire. Am I wrong? (using M/A guns with ammo BTW....I remember there being ammo issues in OOS...I think, with Gamma backups, betas and alphas on turrets.)

I mean I've charged at a pair of m6+ that were probably 80% tricked out and was able to blast one and get the other down and on the run with 25% hull, while I was at 30 % shields...having stupidly taken the brunt of both m6+ main guns (thought the other m6+ was facing the other way, widescreen high resolution =/= better for that tiny target window). And I've watched OOS battles when my m7 is on patrol and it seems to take damage and deal it similar to my IS experiences.

So I can only assume that my main guns aren't being used at close range when a m6(+) and wing are in combat, else they are using missiles I'm not aware of. I've looked at the heavy missiles and torps...and with 3.7 mil shields...i don't even think a missile frig or bomber would take it out that fast. Which is hard to judge, since I am either not getting an 'under attack' warning or it's happening near instantly.

Heck my Dolphin lasts longer OOS vs. fighter wings...but I think they quit firing ....because they aren't being fired back at? I guess...was weird. They were swarming all around...they had shot at him, but they stopped firing before I got there, but turned on me when I started taking them out with my Sabre. No other police force around, but they were on their way.

Heteran Leticron
04-01-2013, 01:06 AM
ok well then lets go into detail.

everything that happens in oos was optimized with the goal of reducing cpu usage.
thus things were dumped down.
first of all, there is a time interval, in which everything is calculated, that is generally a 5 seconds interval. that means, every ship performes actions every 5 seconds. with one exception! if the player is watching! if you are having the sector map of a specific sector open, the time interval in that sector changes to 30 seconds! That can have a big influence in OOS battles.

Now specificly to OOS battles
Weapons perform very different. Range, Laser Energy, Turret Position, AOE Damage, Bullet Speed (and rocket speed), dont exist. Turret commands are ignored. The only thing that matters is basically, if the weapon is mounted and activ and how much DPS it does. Thus the weapon with the most DPS is the best weapon OOS. since range doesnt matter, combat starts, when both ships are pretty much on top of each other.
Your ship (and any other ship) can allways only attack one target at a time (interval). The damage dealt is calculated by summing the dps of all mounted weapons times the interval. So basically, the damage the ship can deal in that interval. That can be very annoying since this means, a m2 with all its weapons might shoot at an m5 and "overkill" it.
Also interesting: the ship can only perform one action per interval, it can only shoot with its weapons or fire a missile. A fired missile hits instantly and does full damage. Missile barrages cant be fired oos and swarm missiles act as a single warhead.
Mines are btw almost entirely useless, since ships dont move linearly but due to the intervals "leap" every 5 seconds. so you basically need a very big minefield to ensure, that one of those leaps ends near a mine..

so what does that mean in practice.
suddenly a fighter wing comes to its full potential, since all its weapons allways hit. suddenly 4 m3 + m6 have a higher DPS than a single m7, since they together have more weapons and thus firepower and actually shoot for a change. sure a capital ship can tank quite some damage, but since it allways just attacks a single ship and might waste most of its dps by overkilling it, it needs to much time to kill a whole wing of fighters.
m3+ and m6+ in groups are extremly dangerous. even IS. sure you will loose from time to time one of them, but thats nothing compared to loosing an m7.

insolent1
04-01-2013, 02:03 AM
Any changes to ammo based weapons OOS?

dctrjons
04-01-2013, 02:50 AM
Thanks, that sound familiar...but now better understood. So my m7 might be taking out the fighters while being beat on. The 'watching' explains a lot. No wonder I couldn't figure out why things changed so much. I would often notice my ships getting damaged quickly in the property menu, then switch to the sector and couldn't see what the problem was. Assuming that my ship had just taken out the problem enemy causing all the damage.

From what I remember about ammo...everything is fine as long as you have one laser...I can't remember if that's right. Else it thinks it has no weapons.
And slow IS weapons consume more ammo than faster IS weapons...or more or less the same rate just rates far different OOS vs IS.

Lol, it's been too long. All the things that bite you in the ass if you forget (or never learned).

More I play, the more I'm ok with Cap ships being non-'drivable' in the next game. Prefer it, but understand the reason why not to. And since the main reason I fly cap ships is I know I can do it better in X situation vs the AI...especially when it comes to the OOS problems like this (or rather avoiding them). I much rather the time being spent in cap-ships being able to handle themselves, than the effort it would require to make them believably pilot-able by the player.

Scoob
04-01-2013, 09:08 AM
I'm guessing TC didn't get some of the same enhancements AP did - in AP the OOS balance issues was largely solved. It's very rare to get a "how the hell did that kill that?!?" type issue in AP these days.

Additionally, I can confirm that certain fight commands are a little flaky. For example "defend position" basically doesn't. A ship entering the area (10km radius) is what first triggers it, however once attacking the "defend position" ship will chase an enemy all across the sector. Seeing your M7 leave it's post to chase an M5 it will never, ever catch is frustrating. I think in AP (or possbily another script I installed) if a ship is fleeing, a slower ship will give up the chase.

Another command that I used all the time in AP was "Defend Sector" this was GREAT and very effective. Ships would station themselves centre (ish) sector and engage any enemies. In TC, the command starts, then cancels its self and the ship do nothing there after.

I also remember there used to be a sector patrol command where you could set in-sector way points. Not got this in AP at the moment, but it was great programming ships to fly around a station, or buzz each gate on their local patrol rather that just idling randomly around the sector. Looked like the local patrol wings actually had purpose while in-sector, which was cool.

I suppose, like anything, you get used to doing things in a certain way. The only downside of XTC is really some of the older TC engines limitations and bugs.

Scoob.

dctrjons
04-01-2013, 09:51 AM
Oh I was talking Rebirth. I didn't want to tease my self too much with AP.

And, I think I have to agree (so far) that Defend sector appears to be the most viable way to keep it alive. Although I'm not sure if it goes after 'hostile' cargo. I can't tell if they are targets or not, the races are set as non-enemies...but they hate me so they are red, but I haven't noticed them actively giving chase. I thought the setting would turn everything blue unless it was actively attacking you.

Also I've noticed some strange AI (that I had seen way back but forgot how to handle) with patrol forces. I can get a single Police ship mad and can't apologize (for the idiot running into me when I'm not moving in empty space 20 sec after the battle is over with the pirates). Seems I can leave and come back, ships lost from the wing will get replaced, and not be hostile, but there is still one mad dude, but since I guess he's not the wing leader they don't attack...I think. Been concerned about leaving my ship OOS in these sectors, not knowing if my ship or theirs will forget their manners and send my rep down the hole (I assume OOS ship can affect rep).

K.J.
04-01-2013, 10:46 AM
I assume OOS ship can affect rep
yes it can

but there is still one mad dude, but since I guess he's not the wing leader they don't attack...I
correct. Their friend/foe setting doesn't get updated correctly. But they don't attack, they always follow their leader.
As long as you have ammo for your weapon, OOS will be correct. No ammo->no damage at all.

dctrjons
09-01-2013, 06:07 PM
Ok, a little more specific and likely not Mod related.

What is the difference between "Idle" and "Standby". If I want to order a ship to stay still...I'm not sure what they will do with these orders. I assume XTC doesn't effect these commands...but JIC I guess it's wiser to ask here and it ties into my ships defending themselves or not.

(think there was a second part to the question...see if I remember later)

King of the World
09-01-2013, 06:41 PM
If you want that a ship stands still give him the command "None". Then you can be sure, that it will stand where its drive went offline. I think the command "idle" is something like a maneuver to go to waiting position. "Standby", first seen here when the ship is a sector trader, is a command if the ship's pilot register that there is at the moment no chance to buy something. In this way he is taken a "waiting position" (in space or docked at a station) too.

code99
09-01-2013, 06:46 PM
None is the best way to ensure your ship stays put, Standby, i havent used the command directly but as King of the World (http://www.thexuniverse.com/members/1974-King-of-the-World) said, you see it often in ships running the sector trade, universe trade, if you have the CAG installed you will see it there aswell and so on but as for direct use i have no idea what it does. Idle on the other hand makes your ship fly around the system at low speed ... flying about doing nothing. This is my preferred option that i use on some ships when i have no jobs for them.

King of the World
09-01-2013, 06:54 PM
Yes, but giving the command "idle" and your ships begin to fly through the sector, they will be a good target for spawning Xenon and Kha'ak raids. Better is to dock them at a station. If you have a job for them they can start from safety.

dctrjons
09-01-2013, 09:29 PM
Ahh gotcha, I get it now. Forgot about "None". Because yeah, sometimes if I'm spacewalking or for whatever reason am near one of my larger ships with a smaller one...one of the commands leaves collision avoidance on...and well, we all know how that can turn out. That must be "Idle."

code99
09-01-2013, 09:31 PM
Yes, but giving the command "idle" and your ships begin to fly through the sector, they will be a good target for spawning Xenon and Kha'ak raids. Better is to dock them at a station. If you have a job for them they can start from safety.

Well ya, i do that almost every time. What i should have mentioned, only time i use idle is when im gonna be needing said ship soon, i park them in idle for a min or two then give em new orders. All the other ships that either need repairs or I just dont have much to do with them are safely docked.

dctrjons
11-01-2013, 01:15 AM
safely docked
Almost an oxymoron.

Tritous
11-01-2013, 02:35 PM
OOS has always been an engine issue. Things changed from X2 and X3R where it was based on weapon damage (so a BFLAK was the best OOS by far) to X3TC where it is dps based. Interesting to know that in X3AP they finally sorted it. The "hit 1 ship at a time" thing I never knew, but now it all makes sense.

Regarding patrols...This would suggest that maybe drone frigates really are suitable, or at least a combo of a frigate backed up by a drone frigate. It also shows why fighter drones actually work as distractions OOS.

One day, I will jump a Mammoth into a xenon core world and release 29,000 fighter drones and set them to attack all enemies. I may even try doing it IS!

code99
11-01-2013, 03:01 PM
One day, I will jump a Mammoth into a xenon core world and release 29,000 fighter drones and set them to attack all enemies. I may even try doing it IS!

That has to be fun watching or do :D

Tritous
11-01-2013, 03:25 PM
It will probably be a worse framerate than my old quadruple XI mission. but worth doing anyway