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    Thread: Weapon Layout on capships in TC

    1. #1
      Administrator Galder's Avatar
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      Default Weapon Layout on capships in TC

      Did you ever asked yourself why you had such a bad time against enemy fighters in your Boreas? Killing a K was a piece of cake, but you lost almost 20% of your shields to its escort afterwards?

      Basics:

      The reason is the new weapon layout and the enemy behaviour. Did you asked yourself if the escort of a single K is a threat? Yes it is! A K has normally an escort of 20 M3. Some of them maybe LX, most of them Ls and some M. Let's just take 20 L as an example. An L has 3000 MW laser energy. 20 of them will have 60000. If you don't take care of them, you will be dead soon. 60000 is more firepower than on a J (or a similar M1), and a J is able to tear your beloved ship into pieces in some seconds. Imagine the worst case, 20 LX. The combined laser energy is 185000! This means there's the firepower of 3 M7/M1 out there, pointed at your direction.

      M2:

      If you have a long look at the turrets and the weapons which they can mount, you'll come across the fact that all M2 (except the Osaka), which can be obtained without cheating or complicated boarding maneuvres, can only mount "big weapons" in their left and right turrets. There is no anti fighter weapon allowed. Those HEPTs, CIGs and Ion weapons are not precisely enough to hit a single passing L with accetable performance.

      Anti fighter weapons are in my opinion FAA and PSGs. Cluster FAA may work, but they aren't as precisely as the FAA due to their inferior bullet speed. The PSGs don't have to be fast, they hit simply everything in a range of 2.4 km. All other weapons are simply to inefficient. PACs (and similar M4 weapons) have a suitable range and bullet speed... but the damage dealt is simply a joke if you have to face 20+ enemy fighters in your M2. You don't want to have the firepower of a single M4 on your back turret, do you? Especially against 20+ enemy fighters.

      So the player has to stick to FAA or PSGs in the upper, down and back turret. If you don't get rid of all those fighters, there won't be enough shields left for the incoming Qs e.g. The big question is, why do i loose so many shields to the fighters? The answer is the new weapon layout wastes almost 40% of weapon power compared against the old layout from Reunion. The key is the enemy behaviour. To clarify this i made a crude sketch:



      Image 1 is the theoretical situation when the cap has gone and the fighters are swarming around your ship. The red dot is your ship, the blue ones are the enemy fighters, the blue lines are indicating their orientation towards your ship.

      Image 2 shows what happens if you move forward. The enemy fighters get dragged behind your ship and are piling up. This takes time, because you don't sit in a spacecraft moving at lightning speed But i think you can imagine that 75% of all fighters in this optimized situation have to pass the shooting arch of your up, down, left and right turret when the player moves forward. It is also remarkable that no... zero.. nada... rien... enemy fighter will remain in front of your cap, even if you move at 40 m/s. They CAN'T fly backwards with more than 10 m/s, they are forced to get behind or to the side (or up and down) of your ship.
      In fact, the normal situation is that every single fighter will pass your ship, because you flew towards the enemy cap, destroyed it and now the escort is coming to have some serious words with you

      The conclusion is to have a really good anti fighter weaponry in every turret they may pass. If you equip your left/right turret with PPC or something similar, you deny 50% of the M2 potential. Ask yourself if it is worth to have some CIGs (or something similar) pumping out laser energy like hell into the depths of space. Or do you really want to have the uber power of 8 combined PACs (or water guns of doom like the HEPTs) in your side turrets?
      The only 2 exceptions are the Osaka (can mount Starbursts all around) and the Odysseus (can mount PSGs up and down, the firing arch and the area effect combined offers almost complete coverage).
      The only thing you get with PPC in the side turrets is a dead enemy cap. But there's no reward for shooting it down with 16 PPCs instead of 8. The explosion is not bigger, the droprate isn't higher, so what's the point? "Yeah... i showed him... the combined power of 16 PPCs!" Yes, and now his 20 friends will show you something. There is no single ship in the whole Universe of TC which can't be defeated with 6 Flamethrowers. So using 16 PPCs is just for the show nd nothing else.

      If you're now pointing out that a M2 is designed to fly between two other caps and exchange some broadsides to destroy them, please, do so and post some screenshots afterwards... if you can. But that's another story. M2 can't exchange the whole nine yards with 2 enemy caps without support. And if a M2 captain is dumb enough to present his broadside to a K which is firing PSPs or PPCs he just risks getting hit more often.

      To sum this up:
      If you don't use an Osaka with full Starburst weaponry or an Odysseus with PSGs, you have to roll your ship and maneuver quite a lot. If you use a Python, you have to be a masochist.

      M1:

      ... or the funny art of war.
      This class and its weapon layout was desingned by someone who had a special idea in his mind and did never tested it. They took the old weapon layout and tried to make them unable to do some things they hated to see in Reunion. E.g. the Khaak sector runs (or the Elephant trick). I think ES didn't like to see a M1 shooting at something with its front turrets and its PPCs. What we now have is a crippled shipclass which is designed to use its broadside.

      Did you ever wondered about these dumb Js sitting there at 0 speed waiting for the player and presenting their broadside waiting for the player to beat the &%$! out of him? Yes, that's the way some idiot thought how M1 would fight. It's not a bug, it's intended behaviour. If you check the scripts running on that 0 speed J there is nothing missing. I'm asking myself which part of artificial INTELLIGENCE was unclear while designing the "new" M1 class?

      Oh no, wait..... the Colossus and some other masterpieces have the ability to mount heavy weaponry on the right side and additional PPCs in the upper turret. WOW! I just have to present a 2 km long, almost 700 m high broadside to deliver a heavy volley of 6 PPC guns? But... erm... what will happen, if i have to present the left side? Oh, of course, i can mount CIGs. Every K will be frightend to death when faced with 4 CIGs Yes, please point out some american aircraft and its asymmetrical weaponlayout. THAT's a FIGHTER! NOT the carrier USS Enterprise.
      Oh wait... i can install these unholy damagedealers in the front turret! Yes... i just have to get in range where a K can ram me to death to get them working and deliver less damage than a Centaur, because the turrets still calculate the range towards the centre of an enemy cap.

      The real highlight on M1 are their back turrets.

      Try to find just one M1 except the Tokyo, Odin and the J which is able to mount something acceptable into its back turret. 4 CIGs? Against 20+ M3? Just in case you have to defend yourself? Because you don't have 8 GJ shields and even 5-10 Ls are a threat? Oh, yes, i forgot, i still have my uber own fighter squadron... which maybe 5-8 km away, because they just killed that cap there? Damn, i almost forgot about them.

      Lets have a look at the Image 3.
      A M1 moves considerably faster than a M2. So the enemy fighters will be dragged behind the M1 much faster. They can all mount FAA or PSG in the upper, down, left and right turret. So all fighters have to pass this zone and can be shot down. But when they get behind me? Yes, you can see it in the picture. There is a wide open space, a blind spot with the width of the Taj Mahal where you can use nothing else than 4 CIGs or 4 HEPTS to take down the enemy fighters. Instead of this you can mount Flamethrowers on almost every M1 Yeah, i know you'd love to shoot down caps with them.

      That's it... present your broadside, fire some volleys and launch your fighters and than... sprint away, using your back turret on the run to soften up the enemy cap shields for your fighters. Perfect. Except the fact that your six is now facing 20+ M3s which defined you as their prime target, your whole squadron is 6 km away killing the cap. Does this situation sound familiar? Oh yeees. You can define more than one wing and have some fighters spare to defend you.... yeeees, every PC will handle fights with more than 60 ships shooting at the same time. No question about that... even a DX-100 will handle this What? Of yourse it had already the x86 architecture!
      Ok, no more jokes. This seems to be the idea behind the weaponlayout of the M1 class.

      BUT! If you launch your fighters BEFORE the enemy is shooting at you, it'll target your fighters, not your carrier, because they are in formation with you and reasonably nearer to the enemy. THEY will be the prime target and they will get slaughtered. If you launch them on the run, there will be accidents and they will be sitting ducks to any further cap coming at you while fighting YOUR prime target. You will loose fighters in greater numbers than you can imagine. And you still have to deal with the enemy escort by yourself.

      Honestly... no joking! It is far more efficient to fly backwards towards the enemy, using the back turret to combine the firepower of your fighter wings with your flamethrowers and using the F2 outside view to dodge incoming bullets. The only exception comes from the M7 class with the split Panther. This is the only usable M1 at the moment, because it has FAA all around (and in the back turret!) and Flamethrowers in the front turret. With 121 m/s it's even faster than some M3.

      Now what's the deal here? M1 are not supposed to fight toe to toe against a M2. Yes, that's true. But have you ever tried to jump in a Xenon sector e.g. and line up your fleet? If you jump in first, it'll take you several MINUTES to get the gate clear of yourself to call in your M1 as support. With a K and a Q guarding the gate, the fight has to be over in several minutes or you're dead. When the M1 arrives 90% of all enemies will be dead or you have already seen the Game Over screen.
      And guess what... if you killed these 2 caps in 99% of all sectors there will be only M3 or some Qs left over to compete against, because there is simply no sector with more than 2 Xenon caps. The M1 class is in this condition and with the lack of enemies something for the museum of not so modern (or intelligent) arts.

      M7:

      Now we can compare the M7 to the M2 and M1 class. Why are they so strong? Yes, because they have the old and flexible weaponlayout of X3:Reunion. They are fast, they are even better shielded compared to certain M1, they have a decent weapon energy and massive front weapons. So, if you have to do some serious buisiness, e.g. Final Fury end mission, place yourself in a Tiger, Shriek or an Agamenon and enjoy. A Deimos will have some difficulties, but even with pure PSG weaponry he's able to finish the mission on his own. In a Tiger you won't have ANY trouble even without the whole fleet of split and argons. Please, don't try the Cerberus, it's just another masterpiece of design like the M1 class.

      Just my 2 cents

      Last edited by Galder; 23-12-2008 at 01:18 AM. Reason: Added some spelling errors and other funny things, just for entertainment ;)

    2. #2
      Administrator Galder's Avatar
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      After some days experiencing the 1.4 patch i found several disappointing things, e.g. capping with marines, and some interesting things Some of you who had previously installed the turret fix by Gazz may have seen this before, but it was new to me. I don't think ES has intended that behaviour and i enjoy myself bringing hell to Xenon and Khaak. I even ran out of enemies

      What has changed in 1.4?
      In one sentence: Gazz turret fix. He fixed it so good, that it is the return of the M2 class They can be again the king of every battlefield if they are piloted by the player.

      Just try this:
      Buy yourself a boron Ray, equip him to the max. 24 PPCs (front/left/right) and 16 FAA (up/down/rear). Set the FAA turrets to kill every enemy and the PPC turrets to attack my target. Jump into a Xenon sector and target the first visible capship. (You hopefully hit a gate without a gang of J/K rotting there in a distance of 20 metres )
      Line up EXACTLY with the incoming enemy and lower the nose of your ship down to something around 25. Roll your ship until the enemy has the same horizon as you have (don't know how to explain this in english). Don't fly towards your enemy, this will spoil the effect
      To give you a clue... try to focus the baseline of the square that marks a targetted enemy ship.
      Now, if you lined up yourself exactly to your enemy, and your nose is low enough, enjoy 24 PPC working perfectly together, throwing the whole nine yard at your target There's no need to charge your volleys anymore.

      Kozaki wrote in the german section that it was already possible to shoot at a target which is directly in front of your ship if you place yourself in a side turret and use the mouse to aim and fire. Now i found that the AI also uses this trick (auto aiming support with fighting software MK2). So, with Gazz turret fix, included in the actual patch 1.4, the shooting arch of all turrets has been increased over 100% for the AI!

      It was already possible to do this trick on a tiger with long ranged weapons and a pursueing enemy. I don't think that this was intended... but M2s with their massive weapon energy are somewhat as heavy as the Leviathan/Valhalla/Tyr from XTM. (Although that this baby operated 36 G-PPC ) Haven't tested it with my Odysseus. That must be a weapon of mass destruction with its PSGs in the up/down/rear turrets. They have also been fixed... there is no blind spot anymore. If you try to kill Xenon caps with a M6, you have to fly into the gaps between their different sections. And now imagine an Odysseus with no blind spots and a turret coverage of more than 100% dur to the turret fix May the holy light shine upon you, it truely will!

      As i said, the return of the true kings of battlefields But don't be fooled Your not invincible, they have still an inferior turret setup compared to Reunion and XTM. Greater swarms of fighters will bring your shields down pretty easy if you don't roll and maneuver. Espescially Yaki and their fighters are deadly The only exception is (and was since release of TC) the Osaka and the Odysseus.

      Beware!
      The enemy has also an AI and he may be also able to use it A Q CAN shoot 4 PPC and 8 front guns at the same time at your ship, if it closes in a straight line. A Tokyo can fire its PSP side turrets straight up/down/to the front... not an easy prey anymore Death can be painfully short in these times Ks and Js still don't manage to operate their front turrets with heavy guns and are no threat. If you seek for adventures, go to Khaak sector 926... there are alway some destroyers around.



      /edit: It may take some time for your side turrets to fire, because they have to rotate to aim the enemy but the show is fun The ATF Tyr with it's 30 PSPs will be fun also

      Last edited by Galder; 27-12-2008 at 08:17 PM.

    3. #3
      TXU Jr. Member adal8or's Avatar
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      Nice guide


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      Quite useful,
      I see capital ship fights this way at times, "we'd just put as much junk up in the air as we can and hope we bring something down." Sadly this is true at times. The M2's have serious deficiencies in TC which were not in Reunion. Now it does seem like it is a matter of spraying space with PPC fire, flak, or plasma burst fire. This leads me to my current line of battle.

      If the fight is going to be about just spraying the enemy with projectiles, nothing can doit better than the M7M and this is why I highly recommend the use of the M7M in conjunction with the M2. Simply set the missile fire possibility to 100% and then attack all. Use the missile barrage ability to direct your fire power efficiently, but this uses alot of ammunition. There is little that can be done to counter it however, and if the hammer torpedoes get through, thats the end of it for them... Also, a broadside of Flails will get the enemy fighters off of your back. It seems that battle has been swung in the favor in of whoever can put more ordinance out in space.

      This causes some interesting issues with cost relations. Take the Aquilo for example. She can hit speeds of 120 m/s, outrunning nearly anything. Add this to its heavily armament and its price tag. If you have ammo for it, and use it properly this ship will kill anything. It can run from the eliptical, releasing flails to destroy fighters, and then pounding the capitals before it gets in range. The only weakness is at close quarters.
      If the M7M is mounting only long cannons, the M2 should have the carronades as well. And so, by mixing them, you strike the optimum balance.

      Thats just my two cents: M2's seem superflous if you can get a cheaper, faster platform that DOESN'T REQUIRE SEPARATE WEAPONS! Thats right, all you have to do is give it missiles, there are no turrets to arm. The M2 entered the arena of TC with serious issues, but thanks to Gazz, its closer to being fixed. Here's to hoping that the M2 becomes the king it should be.



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      Hiya Galder,
      a very nice and detailed analysis my friend, very nice indeed

      Thanks

      Kevso

      ..

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      Can you post it in the german forum, too? My english isn't good enough to understand it




    7. #7
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      @ Kozaki:
      Most of the information are already in there, i'll try to summarize it there

      Short update:
      I tested almost all Race M2s now and it seems that only the Boron Ray nd the Split Python can behave like on the screenshots above. Odysseusand Titan can't do that. Seems to be an issue how close the heavy side turrets are positioned to the centre of a ship. The Odysseus and the Titan have to position themselves at a greater angle to the enemy in order to get 2 turrets to work. It is far less than before, but not enough to behave like the Ray.

      Now why is this so important?
      More working PPC means a faster dying enemy. A J can't start all of its fighter e.g. so you have to deal with 10 instead of 25-30 fighters afterwards. Also fast incoming Qs can be killed much faster than before, even at close range... and they deal a serious amount of damage if they have time on their hands.
      But the important part is tha angle of your ship towards the enemy in which more than one turret operates. If you have to present your broadside you'll suffer a lot of enemy fire, unless you do a little samba dance while dodging With the turret fix the Boron Ray is able to:
      a) fire more guns faster than other M2s
      b) while presenting a resonably smaller profile than other, meaning that dodging incoming bullets is a lot easier.

      Until now i double tested the Titan, Python, Odysseus and the Ray. Boreas and Osaka are still on my list, but i had to snag a Tyr before... because if this thing behaves like a ray, i'll never leave it again After the race M2 i have to test the Brigantine and the Akuma. I don't expect to have a good result on the brigntine, because it is based on the Titan, as far as i can tell, but who knows?
      So far the Boron Ray is THE! destroyer in the game. Very efficient if he meets an enemy who is vulnerable to PPCs like M6 and above. However, he has some difficulties with greater swarms of fighters, but he is the only M2 which can mount FAAs in all turrets where no PPCs are allowed. All other (except Odysseus and Osaka) have a weak spot at their six where tey can only mount less efficient CIGs or something similar. This is where the Odysseus shows his real strength now. Even without the PSG in the side turrets he decimate every fighter swarm in seconds. He has less than 10% dead angle to the side.

      @ Draxis:
      M7M are truely a force of their own. They can take down everything on long range.
      But!
      They have a mean weakness to fast fighters and close enemies. If there is something at close range firing at the M7M you have to sprint away, no matter what, almost all your rockets will explode right after you fired them. Look at the Missile Monitor, the rockets always have to cross a fair bit of the M7M hull before they reach space. Just one IRE shot there and the thing explodes. This denies any damage you can deal, even anti fighter rockets won't work. That means 3 Ns or Ms and you can forget about the M7M. So you have to have an open (and enemy free) field to snipe targets. When you try to get through a Xenon infested gate, like in the most northeastern Xenon sector, you have to rely on your shields and your speed. But you can't run away from Ms or even Ns. This is almost a mission impossible If you want to use a M7M in your fleet, you have to give it a massive anti fighter escort and you have to keep an eye on it, to prevent enemy fighters gettig too close.

      Last edited by Galder; 28-12-2008 at 02:44 PM.

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      @Galder
      This must be why the terrans don't have M7M's imagine the power of a P2P jumpdrive on an Aquilo. And I haven't really had an issue with this yet. I entered a Xenon sector targeted the nearest fighter and loosed 30 flails. That cleared the gate and then I strafed away and cleared the sector. Also, certain M7M's are capable of dodging enemy fire due to their speed.

      Anyway, if I was looking for firepower, my money is still with the M7M, so long as you can keep it armed. But thats just my opinion. The M2 is still quite powerful, but a deftly manouvered and armed M7M is unbeatable given space.



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      Has anyone tried having an M7M under AI control? If so, is it smart enough to swap between Flail Barrage and Torps depending on its target?

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      Administrator Galder's Avatar
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      Update for the tested M2 ships:

      Ray: can operate 3 turrets
      Python: can operate 3 turrets, but a little bit harder to get them to work (useless M2)
      Odysseus: can operate 2 turrets, medium angle
      Titan: can operate 2 turrets, wider angle
      Akuma: can operate 2 turrets, very small angle
      Osaka: can operate 2 turrets, wide angle
      Phoenix: useless M2, won't test it
      K: can operate 2 turrets, very wide angle
      Boreas: can operate 2 turrets, wider angle
      Brigantine: can operate 2 turrets, wide angle, almost exactly like the Titan
      Tyr: can operate 2 turrets, normal angle, dumb ship... can't equip it to the max only 8000 storage just a faster Osaka

      So far, the turret fix did a good job and it seems like i accidentially stumbled upon the only real upgraded M2. The Ray is now far more useful than any other M2 in the game. The other M2s can now fire their turrets easier than before and they have less dead angles, but they don't get that boost compared to the Ray. This will be surely fixed in 1.5 and it's a shame for ES to cripple those ships. The only other M2 which get a decent boost is the Odysseus and it's PSGs. He's now the nightmare of all fighter swarms Love it! But it seems to be the policy of ES in the recent month to patch out every bit of fun you can get by actually playing the game and not following stupid plots.

      @Draxis:
      The M7M are very powerful, indeed. But i prefer the M8 class for long range damage. These crafts look far better than the M7M and have more powerful missiles. Did a "protect station" mission in my stylish Hades 150 Tomahawks and the Mission was over. I accidentially almost killed the station when i tried to take down these Novae They don't have the high firing rate of an M7M, but they are deadly if they are able to deal a single hit and i really like the look of the Hades and the Viper.

      Last edited by Galder; 30-12-2008 at 04:43 AM.

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