• Crazy
  • Cool
  • Awesome
  • Angry
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Sad
  • Shy
  • Tired
  • User Tag List

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 10 of 15

    Thread: Final Draft of The Imperial Constitution

    1. #1
      Moderator Aesir's Avatar
      Credits
      679.79
      Points
      649
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Total Contributions For

      Aesir - {M}      £ 0.00
      Main InfoStatus and ThingsPoints and CreditsOther
      Join Date
      01-02-2011
      Posts
      76

      Default Final Draft of The Imperial Constitution

      Preamble

      The Imperial Code of Honor is a standard of behavior for all pro-Empire pilots. It is within these codes every pilot of the Empire will think of the Empire before oneself, use diplomacy before all other options, fly without fear of attack by other pilots in Empire space, be honorable and respectful to self and others, be open to criticism and learn from fortunes and misfortunes, and to honor the Emperor by building strong military forces, flourishing economies and uniting all imperials against attacks on the Empire.

      The Imperial Code of Honor

      1. Pro-Imperial pilots who have elected to follow the following codes of the Empire shall be protected under this constitution of the Empire.
      2. We are for the Empire before we are for ourselves.
      3. All Imperials have the right to safety in Empire space.
      4. Our conduct shall be honorable and respectful to all.
      5. When the Empire's pilots or assets are unjustly attacked, we shall defend as one. We share success and we share hardships.
      6. The pen is mightier than the plasma - diplomacy is always the correct course of action for disputes.
      7. Those who are active and use their time and resources for the the Empire are the leaders of the Empire.
      8. If someone breaks the Imperial Rules or Articles, they will be treated as outcasts and pirates until they make amends for their actions.
      9. We strive to be benevolent and listen to criticism so that we can learn from our mistakes and make the Empire stronger.


      The Imperial Rules

      1. The Imperial pilots who are pro Empire and have elected to follow the rules and laws of the Empire will be protected under this Imperial Constitution. All others have no protection under this constitution.
      2. Every pilot of the Empire has the right to fly, build and work in Empire space in safety.
      3. Any Imperial pilot, attacking another Imperial pilot in Empire space, can be expelled from the Empire and Imperial Faction Forum until amends have been made.
      4. The Empire aligned alliances are the backbone of the Empire. This includes pro-Imperial neutral alliances who publicly declare allegiance to the Emperor on the Pardus Forum under the Alliance Nexus.
      5. An attack on any Pro-Imperial alliance is considered to be an attack on the Empire.
      6. If the Imperial High Council votes for war or peace, all Imperial alliances will follow.
      7. In times of war, the General will be also the high judge and the Prime Minister of the Empire during the time period of faction war.
      8. The Court of the Empire is the legislative power of the Empire.
      9. The Imperial Chamber is the court of appeal and voting floor of the Empire. It's rulings are final.

      Articles

      **Article 1 Pilots**

      a. Pro-Empire Imperial pilots, together, constitute the Empire. (Pro-Empire Imperial pilots are referred to hereinafter as pilots.)
      b. A pilot who is viewed as Pro-Empire will follow the Imperial Rules and Imperial Code of Honor as defined in this Constitution.

      **Article 2 Voting**

      a. Every pilot has one vote.

      b. The Code of Honor and Imperial Rules cannot be changed.

      c.1. When voting, a 2/3 majority is needed to pass any motion in the voting of the faction forum.

      c.2. Any amendment to the Articles must be voted on in accordance with Article 2c1.

      c.3. The duration of the vote in peacetime is a 5 day period.

      **Article 3 Authority**

      a. The Emperor is the supreme leader of the Empire.

      b.1 The Court of the Empire is the administrative and legislative body of the Empire.

      b.2 All forums and sub forums of The Court of the Empire website are recognized as within the legislative home used by The Court of the Empire for discussions, bills and voting.

      c. The High Council votes on war and peace.

      d. The position of Emperor is mandated by right of birth and is incontestable.

      **Article 4 Imperial Forum**

      a. The Imperial faction forum known as The Court Of The Empire will be used as a collaboration tool for faction projects and operations.

      b.1. Proposals relating to projects, operations or the articles of this constitution should be discussed in the Imperial Chamber sub-forum.

      b.2. The Imperial Chamber is the voting floor.

      c.1. Proposals are discussed in the Imperial Chamber (Main sub forum) prior to being formally submitted for a vote as a bill.

      c.2. A proposal must be seconded by a pro-Imperial alliance leader before it can become a bill.

      d. Voting is conducted in accordance with Article 2.c.1.

      **Article 5 Office of the General**

      a. In times of war, a General is elected in accordance with Article 2.c.1.

      b. Any pilot can become General.

      c. The general is commander of the Imperial Combat Forces.

      d. This office will last for the duration of the war.

      e.1. The general will determine how resources are allocated for the war effort.

      e.2. Resources are the credits, squads, weapons and materials needed for the defense of the Empire, but excludes reallocation of building slots.

      e.3. If buildings or building slots are required, the General only has the authority to request volunteer participation.


      **Article 6 Declarations of War and Peace**

      a. Faction war is declared by the High Council only.

      b. Alliance level conflicts are separate from the Imperial military agenda.

      c. The code of honor, rules and articles of the Empire apply to alliance level conflicts.

      d. Pilots vote on their representation for peace negotiations in accordance with Article 2.c.1.


      **Article 7 PEC Starbases & Military Outposts**

      a. All star bases in the Pardus Empire Contingent (PEC) are the property of the Empire.

      b. All alliances are expected to contribute to the development of defensive MO walls in their own cluster.

      Last edited by Aesir; 03-09-2011 at 08:55 AM. Reason: spelling and grammar corrections
      1 2 1
       

    2. #2
      TXU New Member Hans Breughel's Avatar
      Credits
      54.88
      Points
      404
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Total Contributions For

      Hans Breughel      £ 0.00
      Main InfoStatus and ThingsPoints and CreditsOther
      Join Date
      22-05-2011
      Posts
      44

      Default

      About the Code

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      1. Pro-Imperial pilots who have elected to follow the following codes of the Empire shall be protected under this constitution of the Empire.
      This does not belong in a code of honour. What is a pro-imperial pilot? Why is it necessary to state he shall be protected? Protection should follow naturally from the working of the constitution, without any need of stating it explicitly.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      2. We are for the Empire before we are for ourselves.
      This is lamely worded, and if it means we should always place the interest of the Empire above our own, I can't agree with it either. If we sacrifice our own interest in the short run to that of the greater cause in the longer run, we do so out of well understood selfinterest, but usually this will not apply.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      3. All Imperials have the right to safety in Empire space.
      This too does not belong in the code of honour, but in the rules, and it is already there (rule # 2).

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      5. When the Empire's pilots or assets are unjustly attacked, we shall defend as one. We share success and we share hardships.
      A much weaker version of You shall help your brother in his need. Maybe I am biassed, but the wording in the original code is throughout more concise, more forcefull, and more consistent. Why have this mess of mutilated and weakened versions?

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      7. Those who are active and use their time and resources for the the Empire are the leaders of the Empire.
      I don't see how this can be a guideline for my behaviour. It does not belong here, and frankly spoken, I don't see it belonging anywhere. If that is your intention, you should shape your constitution in such a way, that if it becomes practice, this will be the result. Again, no need for explicitly stating this.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      8. If someone breaks the Imperial Rules or Articles, they will be treated as outcasts and pirates until they make amends for their actions.
      This too belongs in the rules.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      9. We strive to be benevolent and listen to criticism so that we can learn from our mistakes and make the Empire stronger.
      I like the original "You shall not be stubborn ..." much better.

      About the Rules

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      1. The Imperial pilots who are pro Empire and have elected to follow the rules and laws of the Empire will be protected under this Imperial Constitution. All others have no protection under this constitution.
      When will you be considered pro-empire? And by whom? And, see the commentary on Code # 1, there is no need for this rule.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      4. The Empire aligned alliances are the backbone of the Empire. This includes pro-Imperial neutral alliances who publicly declare allegiance to the Emperor on the Pardus Forum under the Alliance Nexus.
      It does not. A neutral alliance cannot be Empire aligned. My feeling is, that hence it can't be part of the Empire either. They can be friends, or allies, but that is imho as far as it should go. This way you are admitting Crimson Dusk to the Empire. Should we have war every time Crimson Dusk is attacked? I'd rather not.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      5. An attack on any Pro-Imperial alliance is considered to be an attack on the Empire.
      Scratch the Pro. Keep things simple.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      6. If the Imperial High Council votes for war or peace, all Imperial alliances will follow.
      Why have this in the rules? That's game mechanics, no need to regulate that any further.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      7. In times of war, the General will be also the high judge and the Prime Minister of the Empire during the time period of faction war.
      Scratch the fat printed part. The duration of the office is regulated in the articles already.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      8. The Court of the Empire is the legislative power of the Empire.
      9. The Imperial Chamber is the court of appeal and voting floor of the Empire. It's rulings are final.
      I have read the articles concerning this matter several times, but I still don't understand. What is the difference between The Court of the Empire and The Imperial Chamber? Who has a seat in one and who in the other? Wouldn't it be much simpler to have just one administrative and legislative body?

      About the Articles

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      **Article 1 Pilots**

      a. Pro-Empire Imperial pilots, together, constitute the Empire. (Pro-Empire Imperial pilots are referred to hereinafter as pilots.)
      b. A pilot who is viewed as Pro-Empire will follow the Imperial Rules and Imperial Code of Honor as defined in this Constitution.
      Pro-Empire Imperial pilots?! This is ridiculous, you can't say that. What is wrong with simply Imperial pilots?
      Viewed as pro-empire by whom? And if the Empire adopts a Code of Honour, implicitly it is expected that every Imperial pilot will base his conduct thereon. No need to state that in the constitution.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      b. The Code of Honor and Imperial Rules cannot be changed.
      Very unusual. As they are, they are far from perfect, and even in a form that will be acceptable to other alliances, you can't expect that. Why block perfecting them altogether?

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      c.1. When voting, a 2/3 majority is needed to pass any motion in the voting of the faction forum.
      That may prove a recipe for stagnation. I would be more in favour of a simple majority, except for changing the constitution, by which I mean the entire corpus, Code, Rules and Articles.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      c.3. The duration of the vote in peacetime is a 5 day period.
      Besides thinking that there may be unforeseen circumstances, necessitating a different period, this is not the kind of detail you want to address in a constitution.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      b.2 All forums and sub forums of The Court of the Empire website are recognized as within the legislative home used by The Court of the Empire for discussions, bills and voting.
      I don't understand what is said here. "Recognized" puzzles me, and "legislative home" too. Could you explain?

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      c. The High Council votes on war and peace.
      If this is referring to the game mechanics for faction wars, it is superfluous. If it is not, it is inconsistent.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      **Article 4 Imperial Forum**

      a. The Imperial faction forum known as The Court Of The Empire will be used as a collaboration tool for faction projects and operations.

      b.1. Proposals relating to projects, operations or the articles of this constitution should be discussed in the Imperial Chamber sub-forum.

      b.2. The Imperial Chamber is the voting floor.

      c.1. Proposals are discussed in the Imperial Chamber (Main sub forum) prior to being formally submitted for a vote as a bill.

      c.2. A proposal must be seconded by a pro-Imperial alliance leader before it can become a bill.

      d. Voting is conducted in accordance with Article 2.c.1.
      This is going nowhere, imho. In a constitution you should define the legislative and executive powers and their relations, not that their meetings should be on this or that forum. As I said before, I don't see why there should be two administrative bodies. Moreover, I miss definitions, and the relations between The Court of the Empire and the Imperial Chamber remain unclear.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      d. This office will last for the duration of the war.
      So, if the general makes a mess of it, you can't replace him? That does not seem wise to me.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      e.1. The general will determine how resources are allocated for the war effort.

      e.2. Resources are the credits, squads, weapons and materials needed for the defense of the Empire, but excludes reallocation of building slots.

      e.3. If buildings or building slots are required, the General only has the authority to request volunteer participation.
      These are all unnecessary. You are commander in chief or you are not, and you are operating within the given environment.

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      **Article 6 Declarations of War and Peace**

      a. Faction war is declared by the High Council only.

      b. Alliance level conflicts are separate from the Imperial military agenda.

      c. The code of honor, rules and articles of the Empire apply to alliance level conflicts.

      d. Pilots vote on their representation for peace negotiations in accordance with Article 2.c.1.
      Article 6a is not needed.
      I don't understand 6b. I don't suppose it means to say, that if Empire alliances are attacked, this not a concern of the Empire?
      6c is selfevident, away with it!
      You need to clarify 6d. How this representation comes to be, and why the pilots should vote on it?

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      b. All alliances are expected to contribute to the development of defensive MO walls in their own cluster.
      This should not be in the constitution.To maintain defensive walls or not, is a strategic decision the leadership should be able to make according to the circumstances.

      Conclusion

      In this concept an outline is sketched of a leaderless empire. Only the legislative power is somewhat fuzzily defined, no trace of the executive power. The Imperial Chamber seems to be the most important administrative body, but though it can make decisions, it has no executive power, and no funds.

      It seems that every Imperial pilot has a vote in The Imperial Chamber, which is quite revolutionary. Since nothing is said about its times of meeting, I guess we should suppose their meeting is continuous and eternal?

      Although in practice, the alliances do almost everything that is needed, I miss them almost entirely in this scheme. Nothing at all is arranged about foreign policy.

      As it is, this is a rambling concept, that needs a lot of fixing before it is ballroom-ready. But even then, I can't see much merit in it. It will only legitimate chaos, and it won't stop Dujks and friends to keep tramping the old paths.

      Last edited by Hans Breughel; 03-09-2011 at 02:57 PM.
      0 0 0
       

    3. #3
      TXU New Member Liderc's Avatar
      Credits
      59.25
      Points
      273
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Total Contributions For

      Liderc      £ 0.00
      Main InfoStatus and ThingsPoints and CreditsOther
      Join Date
      12-05-2011
      Posts
      12

      Default

      A shame I wasn't able to read and check the scratch yesterday. Anyway, w/o going in details, most of Hans's notes I agree with. But there are 2 major things I'd like to point out:
      1. It's way too long. Honestly, you don't expect most pilot read this, do you? But if pilots aren't going to read it, then there's really little point in making it.
      2. It fails to address the issue when an imperial alliance provokes war. Even more, "if an imperial alliance is attacked, the whole Empire is attacked". Welcome CD conflicts. It does mention private conflicts, but that isn't really defined.

      I wouldn't like to be the ruiner of the fun, but tbh I don't think this constitution as a whole would lead anywhere. Beyond looking well and giving 1-2 pilots some fun and/or reference points, it'll remain basically useless. I've seen such efforts elsewhere, and I know the chance to make this useful will be closer to 0% than anything else.
      On the other hand when we were talking about the rules and coordination, I meant simple rules, simple one-lines. Short, clear sentences, avoiding to sound too lofty. What I mean:

      1. Imperial alligned alliances are considered imperials.
      2. Neutral alliances may announce they are imperials, but only if the majority of their pilots is imperial. Other neutral alliances are considered imperial only, if the imperial alliances accept them as one.
      3. Any imperial pilot who attacks another imperial pilot without provocation will be treated as an outcast or pirate.
      4. No imperial is to be killed or raided in imperial space, unless they are outcasts or pirates.
      5. We use a common forum to discuss imperial policies. ((Note: Rules are to set elsewhere, though I still doubt it should be much more than a communication board between leaders and active seniors))
      6. Imperial alliances are expected to help each other in times of need.
      7. Unprovoced attack on an imperial alliance is an attack on all imperials.
      8. If an imperial pilot or alliance is provocing an attack, the victim has the right of self-defense. These situations are considered private conflicts, not imperial issues.
      9. Imperial alliances are responsible for the MO wall of their core they inhabit.

      Personally I'd scrap all reference to imperial voting policies and the wartime general. The reason is simple: in case of the general if the leaders and seniors can agree on a single leader, then there'll be one. If there are some who disagrees, they'll refuse to cooperate reradless of any formal decision. In case of voting it's even simplier: people cast their votes individually. If there's consensus, leaders will announce that and pilots are likely to vote together. If there's no consensus, no formal board will force its will on the individuals. Remember that without resources to force your will on people, you can only gain their support if you convince them to cooperate. And I doubt we want to see an "imperial police" to regulate nonconformists.

      0 0 0
       

    4. #4
      TXU Jr. Member Shimokita's Avatar
      Credits
      27.85
      Points
      448
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Total Contributions For

      Shimokita      £ 0.00
      Main InfoStatus and ThingsPoints and CreditsOther
      Join Date
      16-08-2011
      Posts
      55

      Default The Code of Honour

      It's great to see the discussions on this forum getting off the a flying start. You made a lot of points, but it may be a bit much to reply to all of them at once, so I'll attempt to do it in chunks.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      This does not belong in a code of honour. What is a pro-imperial pilot? Why is it necessary to state he shall be protected? Protection should follow naturally from the working of the constitution, without any need of stating it explicitly.
      Under this constitution, a pro-Imperial pilot is someone who adheres to the constitution. They may be Imperial, or they may be something else, but they work for the benefit of the Empire. Perhaps we can add that definition into Article 1 and remove it from the Code.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      This is lamely worded, and if it means we should always place the interest of the Empire above our own, I can't agree with it either. If we sacrifice our own interest in the short run to that of the greater cause in the longer run, we do so out of well understood selfinterest, but usually this will not apply.
      It's something I strongly believe in and I've always put preparing the rest of the faction for war ahead of my own skilling. We need stockpiles of missiles and comodities, but there aren't many people who use their AP's for the Imperial agenda. I also think there's real value in giving credits to newer pilots so they can rank/XP/skill more quickly and upgrade their ship. I've even weakened NPC's for lower skilled pilots so they can get their next building slot quicker. Everyone benefits if we work for one another.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      This too does not belong in the code of honour, but in the rules, and it is already there (rule # 2).
      The Code of Honour is really a set of values & beliefs. We believe that Empire space ought to be a safe place for all pro-Imperial pilots. It was probably worded differently in an earlier draft, but I think the spirit of the value/belief is captured in the point. The code legislates for the rules, so it's okay to have it in both places.


      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      A much weaker version of You shall help your brother in his need. Maybe I am biassed, but the wording in the original code is throughout more concise, more forcefull, and more consistent. Why have this mess of mutilated and weakened versions?
      Item 5 of the Code of Honour was worded that way to endure that we don't help those who are unjust simply because they're "your brother". If they start a fight with someone for selfish or unjust reasons and then things start to go wrong for them, they have no right to expect the rest of us to bail them out.

      We want to be seen as a faction of reasonable people. We should examine issues before jumping in head first and make sure we aren't the aggressors.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      I don't see how this can be a guideline for my behaviour. It does not belong here, and frankly spoken, I don't see it belonging anywhere. If that is your intention, you should shape your constitution in such a way, that if it becomes practice, this will be the result. Again, no need for explicitly stating this.
      It's a belief, so it belongs in the Code of Honour. If you dedicate your time, AP's and resources to the Empire, you're more entitled to call yourself a leader than someone who trolls on a forum. If you're not active in projects which further the Imperial agenda, how can you justify calling yourself a leader?

      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      This too belongs in the rules.
      It's there because it's a value, and it can be in both.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      I like the original "You shall not be stubborn ..." much better.
      The constitution you proposed said "You shall not be stubborn, but admit your mistakes graciously. If we listen to criticism, we can learn from our mistakes and make the Empire stronger." The new version is worded differently, but has the same spirit. We want to be seen as the 'benevolent faction' - it sounds better than the 'not stubborn faction'.

      0 0 0
       

    5. #5
      TXU Jr. Member Shimokita's Avatar
      Credits
      27.85
      Points
      448
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Total Contributions For

      Shimokita      £ 0.00
      Main InfoStatus and ThingsPoints and CreditsOther
      Join Date
      16-08-2011
      Posts
      55

      Default

      I agree with Liderc about having a short list. My original proposal was to articulate a set of shared values and beliefs and let that legislate for all behaviour. However, everyone else wanted something more legalised, so we worked for two weeks to get a compromise.

      There was actually a longer draft of this constitution which described tax collection and allocation of funds, but those sections were completely scrapped. Hans' constitution was heavily involved with creating structures for authority (largely about the Governor) rather than being used as a reference for guiding behaviour, but it was used as a starting point for the constitution above.

      0 0 0
       

    6. #6
      TXU New Member Hans Breughel's Avatar
      Credits
      54.88
      Points
      404
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Total Contributions For

      Hans Breughel      £ 0.00
      Main InfoStatus and ThingsPoints and CreditsOther
      Join Date
      22-05-2011
      Posts
      44

      Default

      Quote Originally Posted by Shimokita View Post
      It's something I strongly believe in and I've always put preparing the rest of the faction for war ahead of my own skilling. We need stockpiles of missiles and comodities, but there aren't many people who use their AP's for the Imperial agenda. I also think there's real value in giving credits to newer pilots so they can rank/XP/skill more quickly and upgrade their ship. I've even weakened NPC's for lower skilled pilots so they can get their next building slot quicker. Everyone benefits if we work for one another.
      Probably I have not been clear enough. "We are for the Empire before we are for ourselves" translates to "the pilots are there for the Empire." Of course not. The Empire is there for the pilots, not the other way around.

      Quote Originally Posted by Shimokita View Post
      The Code of Honour is really a set of values & beliefs. We believe that Empire space ought to be a safe place for all pro-Imperial pilots. It was probably worded differently in an earlier draft, but I think the spirit of the value/belief is captured in the point. The code legislates for the rules, so it's okay to have it in both places.
      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      3. All Imperials have the right to safety in Empire space.
      Is this a value, or a belief? No, the corresponding beliefs are that it is wrong to attack another Imperial pilot, or to destroy his property. Therefore it doesn't belong in the Code. And no, it is not OK to have that in both places, that's just demonstrating a lack of clarity.

      Quote Originally Posted by Shimokita View Post
      It's a belief, so it belongs in the Code of Honour. If you dedicate your time, AP's and resources to the Empire, you're more entitled to call yourself a leader than someone who trolls on a forum. If you're not active in projects which further the Imperial agenda, how can you justify calling yourself a leader?
      It's not a belief, it is an intention. If your constitution works towards achieving that, no need to explicitely say so, and certainly not in the Code. And besides, in this constitution there are no leaders, so the whole point is moot.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      8. If someone breaks the Imperial Rules or Articles, they will be treated as outcasts and pirates until they make amends for their actions.
      That's not a belief, nor a value, but an article of law, and as such should go either to the rules, or to the articles.

      Quote Originally Posted by Shimokita View Post
      We want to be seen as the 'benevolent faction' - it sounds better than the 'not stubborn faction
      I don't agree that it would sound better and I don't agree on the other point either. The Empire is not a charity institution. Reasonable, honourable, respectfull, all fine. Benevolent? No!

      Last edited by Hans Breughel; 03-09-2011 at 06:43 PM. Reason: typo
      0 0 0
       

    7. #7
      TXU New Member Hans Breughel's Avatar
      Credits
      54.88
      Points
      404
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Total Contributions For

      Hans Breughel      £ 0.00
      Main InfoStatus and ThingsPoints and CreditsOther
      Join Date
      22-05-2011
      Posts
      44

      Default

      Quote Originally Posted by Liderc View Post
      I wouldn't like to be the ruiner of the fun, but tbh I don't think this constitution as a whole would lead anywhere. Beyond looking well and giving 1-2 pilots some fun and/or reference points, it'll remain basically useless. I've seen such efforts elsewhere, and I know the chance to make this useful will be closer to 0% than anything else.
      I fear that's the plain truth and nothing else. You can only have a non-government like in this concept work if there is a well defined common goal.

      0 0 0
       

    8. #8
      TXU Jr. Member Shimokita's Avatar
      Credits
      27.85
      Points
      448
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Total Contributions For

      Shimokita      £ 0.00
      Main InfoStatus and ThingsPoints and CreditsOther
      Join Date
      16-08-2011
      Posts
      55

      Default The Rules

      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      About the Rules

      When will you be considered pro-empire? And by whom? And, see the commentary on Code # 1, there is no need for this rule.
      Yes, a definition of pro-Empire is required. Perhaps you're right that it isn't a rule, so it may belong in the Articles.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      It does not. A neutral alliance cannot be Empire aligned. My feeling is, that hence it can't be part of the Empire either. They can be friends, or allies, but that is imho as far as it should go. This way you are admitting Crimson Dusk to the Empire. Should we have war every time Crimson Dusk is attacked? I'd rather not.
      It makes sense for the Empire to have a TSS wing, so why shouldn't they be considered part of the Empire? I know TSS pilots who have shown more loyalty to the faction than Empire-alligned alliance leaders (in other universes). If Crimson Dusk accept this constitution (which includes a value about being "first and foremost for the Empire") and are attacked without provocation, then they deserve our assistance.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      Why have this in the rules? That's game mechanics, no need to regulate that any further.
      Faction-alligned alliances can still declare themselves neutral for a war. This item is in keeping with your desire to have brothers help one another.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      Scratch the fat printed part. The duration of the office is regulated in the articles already.
      Where? Is there a problem?

      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      I have read the articles concerning this matter several times, but I still don't understand. What is the difference between The Court of the Empire and The Imperial Chamber? Who has a seat in one and who in the other? Wouldn't it be much simpler to have just one administrative and legislative body?
      I think you've discovered the remnants of a previous draft. You're right that there should be one body. Right now, the Court of the Empire is the name of the forum and the Imperial Chamber is going to be the name of the section where voting takes place. All pro-Imperials get a vote. I personally don't like the idea of having decisions put to a vote as it's easy to sway people who don't read every post to follow your way, whcih is against the spirit of democracy, but it was left in because you felt very strongly about it.

      0 0 0
       

    9. #9
      Moderator Aesir's Avatar
      Credits
      679.79
      Points
      649
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Total Contributions For

      Aesir - {M}      £ 0.00
      Main InfoStatus and ThingsPoints and CreditsOther
      Join Date
      01-02-2011
      Posts
      76

      Default

      I want to see more of our members speak up. What do you want in the document? We have some flaws in this draft and need your views. Hans and Liderc gave some ideas. Now its your turn. Please put some time into it. When you work on something for so long, you begin to inadvertently place yourself in a box of thought. I see some redundancies. What else do you see? It's not a total loss no matter what Hans says. :P

      The original draft had 16 articles. It now has 7. We tried to shorten it and simplify things. However, Hans really was adamant about a structured list of laws so when you have something like that, you can't have a simple one-liner on each line. We tried and of course can still work at it. I purposely tried to prevent this thing from sounding too much like a law I would read in real life.

      Most importantly, this is not a finished document as it is. Place your wants and needs for it here. The idea is to place the power in the pilots hands and not have a single head of state. Rather, have a code with rules that govern the pilots. This should just be a short rule book to regulate a group of pilots and not a "government". I think 300 pilots can follow a short list of rules and be done with it. Help us create that please.

      Thank you for your input and keep chatting here. Please be respectful no matter how frustrated you get and try your best to articulate your thoughts concisely. We're all a team here so everyone's ideas are important.

      Cheers,

      0 0 0
       

    10. #10
      TXU New Member Hans Breughel's Avatar
      Credits
      54.88
      Points
      404
      This user has no status.
       
      I am:
      ----
       
      Total Contributions For

      Hans Breughel      £ 0.00
      Main InfoStatus and ThingsPoints and CreditsOther
      Join Date
      22-05-2011
      Posts
      44

      Default

      Quote Originally Posted by Shimokita View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by Hans Breughel View Post
      Scratch the fat printed part. The duration of the office is regulated in the articles already.
      Where? Is there a problem?
      Yes, there is a problem. You should arrange a matter in one place preferrably. And this is where:

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      **Article 5 Office of the General**

      a. In times of war, a General is elected in accordance with Article 2.c.1.

      b. Any pilot can become General.

      c. The general is commander of the Imperial Combat Forces.

      d. This office will last for the duration of the war.
      Quote Originally Posted by Shimokita View Post
      Faction-alligned alliances can still declare themselves neutral for a war. This item is in keeping with your desire to have brothers help one another.
      I feel they should still have the right to remain neutral in a faction war. A faction war is not a real conflict, it's more like a tournament in the days of chivalry, providing the opportunity for the fighters to test their mettle. If you have no need for that, why shouldn't you stay out of it?

      Quote Originally Posted by Aesir View Post
      8. The Court of the Empire is the legislative power of the Empire.
      9. The Imperial Chamber is the court of appeal and voting floor of the Empire. It's rulings are final.
      Quote Originally Posted by Shimokita View Post
      I personally don't like the idea of having decisions put to a vote as it's easy to sway people who don't read every post to follow your way, whcih is against the spirit of democracy, but it was left in because you felt very strongly about it.
      So, you feel voting is against the spirit of democracy? I'm afraid that point of view will not attract many votes, if you used it in an election program. Apart from that, I think there is some misunderstanding. I do not "feel strongly" about either of these rules. They were necessary in the carefully thought out versions I drafted before. Since you have removed most of the context wherein they were functioning, you may throw them out as well. The only point I feel strongly about, is to have elections. That would contribute considerable fun and excitement to the game.

      @Shimokita: BTW, I get the impression, that although Aesir has lent his name to it, we are really discussing your draft. Is that correct?

      0 0 0
       

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •